Console

DevTools Podcast

Decentralize your tech stack (Fission & AskGit)

with David Mytton & Jean Yang

S01 E08

2021-08-26

Fission (decentralized app backend for storage and identity) & AskGit (query git repos with SQL), a devtools discussion with David Mytton and Jean Yang.

Episode notes

Episode 8 of the Console DevTools Podcast, a devtools discussion with David Mytton (Co-founder, Console) and Jean Yang (CEO, Akita Software).

Tools discussed:

  1. Fission - decentralized app backend for storage and identity.
  2. AskGit - query git repos with SQL.

Other things mentioned:

David: Welcome to the Console DevTools podcast, a show all about interesting developer tools. I’m David Mytton, co-founder of Console.

Jean: I’m Jean Yang, CEO of Akita Software, an API observability startup. In each episode, we’ll discuss two interesting developer tools. We’re keeping this to 15 minutes, so let’s get started.

David: Our first tool this week is Fission, which is a decentralized app backend for storage and identity. Fission gives developers APIs to build authentication and storage by using peer-to-peer, decentralized technologies, like the Interplanetary File System, (IPFS) without having to worry about the underlying protocol.

If you remember back to one of our previous episodes, when we were talking about offline first and owning your own data, this is really part of that same kind of philosophy. If we go back to the original days of the internet, it really was a distributed collection of networks with nobody in control. If you wanted to host something, you could run a web server behind an IP address, buy a domain name, and then point that to it. The challenge only really came if you wanted to operate at scale. You would have to buy a lot of physical metal servers, find space to rack them and that would just take a lot of time and money.

It’s definitely better now that you get to access those compute resources in a few seconds from the cloud. That helps a lot with innovation and experimentation. The problem comes when a significant portion of the internet is run by just a few companies. I think the big three cloud providers make up a large number of services that we use today. More than 50% of emails go through GMail, all videos are on YouTube, and through the dollar, the US controls most financial transactions.

It just so happens that we’re from the same kind of liberal society that those companies base their principles on, but who knows how that’s going to change over the next decade? The point is that centralized control is fine, so long as you agree with the philosophy of those in control. Whether it’s through Fission’s APIs or something else, maybe using IPFS directly, or WebAssembly-based computing, that’s deployed through web browsers, do you think it’s a good idea to build on top of open web tech that no company is in control of? What do you think, Jean?

Jean: I think this is a really interesting philosophical question because my first response, when I came upon Fission was, oh, well, this seems cool, but who would trust some random company I’ve never heard of to handle storage and auth.

Those seem like the two most important things. So I had sort of an opposite response initially, that you do want the big companies with something to lose, who you trust, with decades of proven track record, to handle this kind of thing. I know this is antithetical to a lot of the culture of computing, but it’s one of those things where, it’s one of those questions, would you rather trust the government to regulate certain kinds of things, or would you trust people to self-regulate? I guess I’m betraying some of my politics here, but I would rather trust the people with something to lose. I think that without some sort of governance, for lack of a better word, and without a reputation or something on the line, I would not necessarily feel that my data is safe and that there’s enough oversight.

David: I definitely agree. I think if you’re going to send your data unencrypted to someone, then you want to be able to trust them. I suppose you could say, well, back in the nineties, would you trust this little startup called Amazon or Google? They’ve proven their trust over the years, through the services that they’ve run. This is a new startup that’s now appearing. If the underlying technology, IPFS, means that the data is distributed and encrypted, so you don’t need to trust them, that’s one of those challenges completely removed.

Jean: There’s, do we trust them with the data? And then there’s, do we trust them to have implemented the very tricky algorithms correctly? I don’t know. I think some people will say, well, if the code is open source and everyone can read the code and everyone can test the code, then we should trust it.

Code is getting more and more complex. It’s running on top of more and more stuff. It’s really hard to just look at code and understand what it does. Back in the day, 10, 20 years ago, you could read code and learn to trust it. I think that open source is really entering a new era, when the source code itself doesn’t actually tell you that much anymore because of everything else that’s going on. It’s not just, do we trust the encryption algorithms? How do they implement the encryption algorithms? Which encryption algorithms do they implement? How’s everything interacting together? What’s this running on top of? What’s the infrastructure they’re running on top of? Do they configure that correctly? There are so many other questions now.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Just being able to read the source code, I think is one of the biggest misnomers of modern open source, because just because you can, doesn’t mean you will, or you’ll be able to understand why it’s there in the first place. Most people are just not going to read through the source code of the Linux kernel or the web server they’re using or the authentication system they’re using.

Jean: And I think even if we crowdsource, we assume everyone is an expert, they know the language, they know all of the components of what’s used. These are not practical assumptions. I wouldn’t even believe that one person could reason about the complexity of all that in their heads.  I don’t know, trust has to be established through doing other kinds of things first. If your first act is store all of your data with me and store all of your auth with me, how do I trust you?

David: Auth potentially has another challenge. Just because if it’s being hosted by a small startup and they go out of business, as most startups do, you’ve got all of your authentication tokens operated by some entity that no longer exists. This is potentially a big problem if you’re running an app.

Jean: There’s also a big gray region where you’re in the middle, you get acquired by one of these bigger players. Now they own all of your auth. If that was the thing you were trying to avoid, there you are again.

David: Fission’s response to this would be, they’re working on open standards, they’re making these standardized through the web standards bodies, they’re going to open source it so you can run everything yourself. How far do you think that goes in mitigating this?

Jean: I think that does go quite far in mitigating the concern that you’re going to have to run it yourself. I do think that auth and things having to do with security and those standards, are things that need to get updated. It’s critical that they do get updated. If you’re building a command line tool that’s doing file processing, and you don’t update it, there’s maybe a file vulnerability once every few decades or something like that. Auth is something that’s constantly evolving. There’s no guarantees that once things evolve, your auth is still going to be up to date. I think it makes it better, but I think auth is definitely not in the same boat as a command line tool that’s really stable.

**David:**We’ve seen some quite successful large companies abstract away authentication, like Auth0. The cloud providers have tried to create their own equivalent services and not really quite reached it. They’ve not quite reached the level that Auth0 has managed to. It comes down to which part of your tech stack do you consider to be critical to the business, that you have to build and run and operate and own yourself, and which can you send out to a third party service?

Jean: For auth especially, it’s really about who do you want to take on your liability? Even for the size of the company I’m running, I’ve told my team, look, let’s just keep using Okta because if we have an authentication issue, I’d much prefer that it’s Okta’s fault than our fault.

David: The final point about this is, who cares about this? The Web 3.0 movement, and that really just means blockchain at the moment popularized through Bitcoin, but I can see it becoming a lot more important over the next couple of years. Is this something that is a really a niche issue, that a small number of advocate developers are gunning for. Users don’t really care, because they’d rather just have docs load in the web browser and everything work fine on Google Drive? Do you think this is something that developers should actually start caring more about?

Jean: I will go out on a limb and say, I think it’s niche. I would love to be proven wrong because that shows that I’m behind the times, and times are progressing. I’d love to hear from our listeners, what they think.

David: Let us know. What do you think about decentralized technologies as the backend to your own apps, as opposed to more consumer-facing apps, like cryptocurrencies?

Our second tool is AskGit, which allows you to query git repositories with SQL. Following on from our previous episode where we looked at code search, this allows you to look at the underlying architecture and metadata that exists in your GitHub repositories. I think we tend to consider git as a container for the source code, and it’s the source code that’s most interesting; but git has really become a database of all the history and the context about the project.

From a philosophical perspective, it’s quite interesting when you have enough history to be able to go back and see how things have evolved. If we think about the real world, there isn’t really anything that exists in the same way, where you have basically a perfect record of the entire existence of a project. Being able to query things like, who’s committed the most code? What’s changed? Which files get attention? How the technologies are changing over time, I think has some potential for some really interesting insights. What was your take Jean?

Jean: I think this is incredible. I love the idea of having data-driven observations about how programmers develop. One of my really good friends is this guy named Seth Stephens-Davidowitz. He wrote a book called Everybody Lies. I’ll shamelessly plug it here. He also writes New York Times opinion pieces where he analyzes Google trends’ data. He’s analyzed Spotify data too, but he’s made some really interesting observations about the way people think and the way people live, based on how they engage with Google Search and other kinds of websites and web apps.

There are so many things I read about developers that aren’t backed up by any data. Most of the discussions about how do developers develop, are really philosophical. They’re based on each developer having their feeling about what their life is, without even really quantifying their own development practices.

When I was a professor at Carnegie Mellon, I also had some colleagues do this kind of research on git itself. There’s one guy named Bogdan Vasilescu. He was doing this git research mostly by hand, because I wanted this data sometimes too. I was asking around, how are people scraping this data?

A few years ago, everyone was doing it by hand, they’d built their own framework. I think it’s awesome that people can now ask these questions in a much easier, lower friction way. I hope that anyone talking about programmers, or working on developer experience, developer tools, really makes great use of this resource. Hopefully developers themselves and their own teams find that it improves productivity and happiness and start using these kinds of data-driven measures.

David: Absolutely. I think because git has quite a reputation for being very difficult to figure out all the different commands that are available, it’s exposing it through an interface that probably every developer knows, which is SQL. It is really easy to access that information. AskGit has just recently extended their integration to allow you to search GitHub’s API through SQL as well. You can querying issues, understanding who starred the repository and link that into all the git commit data as well. This is particularly interesting, given how much critical infrastructure and everything that we do as a society, is based around software now.

Jean: There’s so many questions that I’ve done by hand in the past, like show me bug reports where this happened, or show me security vulnerabilities, and how quickly did they get patched? What was the nature of the bugs? A lot of the bug finding world I think could be really improved by better targeting this. Understanding what gets fixed and how quickly, will really help with prioritization. A lot of these studies have been done, very painfully, by hand. So they’re very few and far between right now.

David: I hope it also encourages people to have better git commit hygiene as well, in terms of putting useful information into the commit messages. Explaining why you’ve made a change is often more useful than just looking at the diff, particularly when you’re six months down the line and trying to explain it to new people on the team.

Jean: Absolutely. Something I’m really excited about is the day when there are automatic analyses that get included in the search as well. What kinds of code changes were there? How big was the code change? Did it impact other parts of the system? I think this will be a really interesting day when we can start searching over that data.

David: All right, that’s it for this week. Let us know what kind of things you would like to be able to search for with a SQL query into your GitHub repositories, and what you think about decentralized tech for your app backend?

Thanks everyone. See you next week.

Jean: Bye.

More episodes

Photo of David Mytton
About the author

David Mytton is Co-founder & CEO of Console. In 2009, he founded and was CEO of Server Density, a SaaS cloud monitoring startup acquired in 2018 by edge compute and cyber security company, StackPath. He is also researching sustainable computing in the Department of Engineering Science at the University of Oxford, and has been a developer for 15+ years.

Photo of Jean Yang
About the author

Jean Yang is CEO of Akita Software. Jean earned her PhD in software correctness and programming language design from MIT and then became a professor in computer science at Carnegie Mellon University before she started Akita to build the future of API observability.

About Console

Console is the place developers go to find the best tools. Each week, our weekly newsletter picks out the most interesting tools and new releases. We keep track of everything - dev tools, devops, cloud, and APIs - so you don’t have to.