Console

DevTools Podcast

WebAssembly

S03 E09

2022-08-04

WebAssembly - a devtools discussion with Connor Hicks (Suborbital). Episode 9 (Season 3) of the Console DevTools Podcast.

Episode notes

In this episode we speak to Connor Hicks, Founder of Suborbital, a serverless platform powered by WebAssembly. We discuss how WebAssembly works, when you’d use AssemblyScript rather than other languages which compile to WASM, the use cases for deploying WebAssembly on the backend, and how the dev, test, build, deploy, and observability cycle works when creating code in WebAssembly.

Things mentioned:

About Connor Hicks

Connor Hicks is based in Ottawa, Canada, and is the founder of Suborbital Software Systems. Connor works primarily on security and distributed systems projects including the Suborbital family of open source projects, and formerly led research and development at 1Password. Connor is a strong believer in building security and privacy into the core of all software, and is exploring the next iteration of web service development with technologies like WebAssembly.

Highlights

Connor Hicks: That is exactly how it started, however, it has morphed and evolved quite a bit from there. WebAssembly, at its simplest, is a binary representation of a program, same as a lot of other formats. If you compile a program for x86 or for ARM, it produces a binary. WebAssembly is a binary, not too dissimilar from those, however, it is designed to be platform agnostic, infrastructure agnostic, processor agnostic, et cetera, et cetera. It’s meant to run anywhere. The original use case for it was absolutely running compiled languages in the web browser. C++ was right there at the beginning. But since then, it has evolved to include non-browser environments like the server, IoT, all that kind of stuff, and is evolved to support all sorts of different languages beyond just C++.

Connor Hicks: Rust is the winning language, I suppose, you could say here in terms of first-party compatibility. Rust has had WebAssembly built in directly for years at this point. Other languages are starting to catch up now, but where the language doesn’t fully support WebAssembly, there are often third-party or open source projects that fill in the gap. For example, Go has actually been able to compile with WebAssembly for a long time, but they’re a little bit behind the standard in terms of the support that’s built into mainline Go.

David Mytton (00:05): Welcome to the Console podcast. I’m David Mytton, co-founder of Console.Dev, a free weekly newsletter highlighting the best and most interesting tools for developers. In this episode, I speak with Connor Hicks, founder of Suborbital, a serverless platform powered by WebAssembly. We discuss how WebAssembly works, when you’d use AssemblyScript rather than other languages, which compile to Wasm, the use cases for deploying WebAssembly on the backend and how the dev, test, build, deploy and observability cycle works when creating code in WebAssembly. We’re keeping this to 30 minutes so let’s get started. I’m here with Connor Hicks. Connor, thanks for joining the Console podcast.

Connor Hicks (00:49): My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

David Mytton (00:50): Let’s start with a brief background. Tell us a little bit about what you are currently doing and how you got here.

Connor Hicks (00:56): Absolutely. My name is Conner Hicks. I am currently the founder and CEO of Suborbital, which is a cloud computing startup focused on WebAssembly and allowing developers to take full advantage of what WebAssembly has to offer. Before that, for almost six years, I was a software developer at 1Password. I was working on all sorts of different things there over the course of my tenure. I worked on the iOS app. I worked on server infrastructure. I worked on enterprise integrations, all sorts of different things. Before that, I had internships at Airbus and WordPress and a bunch of other places. I got my computer science degree as well.

David Mytton (01:44): Let’s start with what is WebAssembly. I’ve read that it is a way to run C++ on the internet. Is that accurate? How would you describe it?

Connor Hicks (01:53): That is exactly how it started, however, it has morphed and evolved quite a bit from there. WebAssembly, at its simplest, is a binary representation of a program, same as a lot of other formats. If you compile a program for x86 or for ARM, it produces a binary. WebAssembly is a binary, not too dissimilar from those, however, it is designed to be platform agnostic, infrastructure agnostic, processor agnostic, et cetera, et cetera. It’s meant to run anywhere. The original use case for it was absolutely running compiled languages in the web browser. C++ was right there at the beginning. But since then, it has evolved to include non-browser environments like the server, IoT, all that kind of stuff, and is evolved to support all sorts of different languages beyond just C++.

There were some projects that led up to the creation of WebAssembly. There were asm.js. There was something called Native Client. There were a bunch of other projects that had the goal of running non-JavaScript code in the browser. Most of them operated by converting C++, or some other code like that, into JavaScript and then running that JavaScript in the browser. That ended up not working super well. It did work. Don’t get me wrong. It did work, but it didn’t achieve all of the goals that were set up to be solved. The creation of WebAssembly really was meant to solve, okay, how do we run more or less arbitrary code in a sandbox that is up to web browser standards. Because I think it’s pretty well known that web browsers run sandboxed code because you’re downloading random stuff from random servers and you’re executing that on your local machine so it’s required that a very tight sandbox is formed around that execution. WebAssembly was designed with all of that in mind.

You can compile Rust, C++, Swift, Go, all these different languages to WebAssembly. No matter where it came from, no matter how that code started off, it will still run in a nice, tight sandbox with a bunch of other nice properties that I’m sure we’ll get into later.

David Mytton (04:25): That makes sense. Why would you want to do this rather than just writing JavaScript, which has basically become the native language of the web?

Connor Hicks (04:35): This is probably the first question that everybody asks when they’re talking about WebAssembly. I think the biggest answer is probably the performance story. You can have code that was compiled from a very lightweight, very high-performance compiled language like C or C++ and you can run that in the web browser at near native performance, which can often be better than JavaScript.

Now, people upon hearing that assume that WebAssembly is this super high-powered, high-performance thing and that’s what it’s for. I will say that, by default, it can actually be the same speed as JavaScript or maybe even a little worse if you don’t take certain things into consideration. It’s not yet, at least, a silver bullet. It’s not perfect. It’s still very young as a technology, but there are plenty of ways where you can get immensely better performance off of something like rendering 3D graphics or running ML models or doing computationally heavy activities, you can indeed get much, much better performance than JavaScript in certain cases. That would be the number one.

The number two reason I would say would really just be like language selection. Not everybody wants to reach for JavaScript. Not everybody is a JavaScript developer. It can enable teams that have maybe a backend team or an ML team that are not native JavaScript developers, or maybe what they’re trying to do just isn’t well suited for JavaScript in the first place. It can enable those other teams to build what they’ve written into WebAssembly and then maybe hand it over to a web app team where they can then embed it into their web app by wrapping it in some JavaScript.

David Mytton (06:23): That makes sense. What kind of use cases have you seen WebAssembly being successful with?

Connor Hicks (06:30): We are seeing a lot of 3D graphics and rendering in the web browser. Some of the earliest demos of WebAssembly was the classic run Doom because that seems to be the first thing that everybody reaches for when they’re demonstrating a new technology. We have seen a lot of that. I’ve talked to companies who are using it to render CAD models. There’s Figma, who’s using it as a plugin system to help, and I think it’s in fact, a big part of the rendering system for a Figma documenter, their FigJam whiteboard plugins. That is really one of the biggest use cases. Then we are also seeing the emergence of some ML models come out now where you can actually run a model right in the web browser and have it get really, really good performance, especially when you combine it with things like web-workers and a bunch of other technologies to really make things fly.

There’s the server-side use cases, which is really what we focus on as a company. The same benefits apply there. You have the portability, you have the security and sandboxing, and then you have the performance, which all lend themselves very well to serverless and functions as a service-type abuse cases. That’s where we see a lot of potential. That’s where we do a lot of our work and kind of goes to show that this is actually a generic technology that can be applied in many different areas. There are a bunch of different companies and teams focused on a bunch of these different areas. We’re all seeing quite a lot of progress, especially over the last year or two.

David Mytton (08:01): That’s interesting because, I suppose, like you said, WebAssembly has come to be associated with the browser and implementing things faster or those specialist use cases in the browser. Using it as a backend technology, is that less well known? Why would you choose that over writing in Go or Python or Rust or anything like that?

Connor Hicks (08:23): It is definitely on the newer side of the spectrum for WebAssembly. Like I said, it did start out as a browser-based technology, but maybe four or five years ago, people realized that it is just a generic way of running sandbox code. Some smart people said, “Hey, let’s extricate WebAssembly itself from the web browser and let’s make it available in other environments.” They did and there are a number of standalone run times that you can use now.

The Bytecode Alliance, which is a conglomeration of companies working on WebAssembly, they have a runtime called Wasmtime. Wasmtime is a standalone WebAssembly executor for non-browser environments. You can embed it in all sorts of different environments. We use it on the server. The biggest benefit that we see is in the sandboxing properties when it comes to supply chain security, protecting yourselves from attacks like the log forge vulnerability that happened a few months ago and ensuring that the software that you deploy can do exactly what you want it to do and nothing more. Any kind of malicious packages, third-party dependencies, anything that goes wrong can actually be blocked by the sandbox of WebAssembly’s runtime.

This allows us to have a slightly better peace of mind when it comes to running the software that we know depends on just an enormous amount of potentially untrusted third party code and still get the performance that we get from the average piece of software being deployed. And because you can compile all of those languages you just mentioned to WebAssembly, you actually don’t lose the ergonomics of the language that you’re comfortable with because if you’re a Rust developer or a Go developer or whatever, you can still build WebAssembly artifacts from that and gain the sandboxing and portability that you otherwise wouldn’t have.

David Mytton (10:23): I’m thinking about how serverless environments benefit from that in particular, I suppose, because if you think of AWS Lambda, they use the Firecracker VM and behind the scenes to run your code. Is it the case with WebAssembly that just wouldn’t be required because of the inherent sandboxing within its own runtime?

Connor Hicks (10:44): Yeah, the comparison between WebAssembly and things like micro VMs and containers is probably one of the biggest misconceptions about WebAssembly because people are constantly pitting these two technologies against each other when in fact they’re not mutually exclusive. The way I like to describe it generally is that a micro VM or a container is something that’s trying to emulate an operating system and is very useful for a wide variety … as we’ve seen, it’s become one of the most popular ways of running software.

But a WebAssembly module is actually more akin to just a single program or a single programming library even. It is not designed to emulate the entire operating system. You can’t run a curl binary inside of a WebAssembly module. You don’t have all of the user accounts and permissions and all of that kind of stuff that comes with an operating system. When you run a micro VM like Firecracker, when you run a container like Docker or OCI or whatever, it is attempting to emulate an operating system. It comes with a lot of very useful tools, but also a lot of overhead and a lot of baggage that comes along with that, including security and performance implications.

When you run a WebAssembly module, it’s not starting up an operating system. It’s not doing any of that stuff. It is simply executing the bytecode of your program that you have compiled. There’s absolutely no reason why you can’t do that within a micro VM or a container because like I said, it is akin to a single program. Combining those two technologies is completely feasible and we do it every day. One of our main projects is designed to run WebAssembly inside of Kubernetes. They’re more so, I would say, complementary technologies rather than either/or, but they can accomplish similar goals depending on what you are using them for.

David Mytton (12:36): That was going to be my next question about what the clustering story is for running those WebAssembly binaries because if you’ve got a load of containers, then you put them on Kubernetes and that makes sense. How are you running those binaries on Kubernetes in production?

Connor Hicks (12:53): We have a couple of open source projects that allow you to run WebAssembly in the cloud. We have one called Atmo, which is kind of our flagship project. It is designed to run WebAssembly-based applications in Kubernetes by packaging up the runtime, the server-side environment, all of your WebAssembly binaries, et cetera, into a standard Docker container and then running that in Kubernetes and then creating auto-scaled meshes and a bunch of nice networking features to go along with that.

But then we also have a project called Sat, which is designed to be run in more edge environments and resource-constrained environments. We’ve tailored that project to Bare Metal because one of the core beliefs of the company is that WebAssembly on Bare Metal is actually going to be a better solution for edge environments than Kubernetes and containers.

That’s not to say that we think Kubernetes or containers are going to go away, by any means, because we still think that’s the best way to run software in central cloud, in us-east-1, but when it comes to these more resource-constrained environments, when performance, especially performance per watt is incredibly important, disc space is important, memory is important, all these things need to be accounted for, we actually think that the efficiency of WebAssembly running on Bare Metal is more efficient and is going to be a better long-term bet for developers.

We’re kind of tackling both of these routes, I suppose, to deploying WebAssembly where you can build an Atmo application and you can deploy it onto Kubernetes with a single command or you can package up your application, ship it to Bare Metal instances and we have a cluster manager called Consti, or Constellation Damon, that will actually execute and run your entire WebAssembly application as a series of serverless functions right on Bare Metal without any containers involved.

It’s really a spectrum. It’s really about what are you trying to accomplish? What does your team need to be able to do? Where are you deploying the application? Very often it will be a marriage of the two. You’ll have certain portions of your application running on the edge. You’ll have certain portions running in the central cloud. There’s absolutely no reason why those things can’t cooperate to create a really great application.

David Mytton (15:10): What is the experience like for developers writing in WebAssembly, presumably you don’t write it directly, you write it in a higher level language and then compiled to it?

Connor Hicks (15:19): Yeah, exactly. The vast majority of developers are writing Rust or they’re writing Go or they’re writing JavaScript or AssemblyScript and they are being compiled to WebAssembly. Most of the languages have this capability built into their tool chain.

Rust is the winning language, I suppose, you could say here in terms of first-party compatibility. Rust has had WebAssembly built in directly for years at this point. Other languages are starting to catch up now, but where the language doesn’t fully support WebAssembly, there are often third-party or open source projects that fill in the gap. For example, Go has actually been able to compile with WebAssembly for a long time, but they’re a little bit behind the standard in terms of the support that’s built into mainline Go.

There is a project called TinyGo that has come up. It was originally designed for running Go on micro controllers, but they also realized that, “Hey, WebAssembly is a really good target for our compiler,” and so they built WebAssembly into TinyGo as well. It’s actually a more up to date implementation than the mainline Go. There’s a bunch of examples like that. It’s a similar story for Swift. It’s a similar story for JavaScript where you have the community coming together and making things work in WebAssembly until the language itself and the tool chain catches up at which point things tend to get merged into upstream or whatever.

It’s really a story of portability because any developer, at least the goal, is that any developer, no matter what language they’re using, should be able to target WebAssembly. I’d say we’re about 80% of the way towards that ideal goal. There’s still some hurdles. There are still some rough edges, but for the most part, any language you use, you can probably get it to WebAssembly.

David Mytton (17:02): You mentioned AssemblyScript. Where does that come in?

Connor Hicks (17:04): AssemblyScript is a very interesting project. It was started because the creators didn’t really believe that mainline JavaScript and TypeScript would add support for WebAssembly. They wanted to create a language that was familiar, like TypeScript, but was native to WebAssembly. They essentially took the syntax of TypeScript and they bundled it with a WebAssembly-native compiler. It’s not using the regular interpreters and JavaScript engines that TypeScript normally runs in. They built a custom compiler that takes TypeScript syntax and compiles it directly to WebAssembly. You do get a very high-performance language there. The kind of trade off you’re making is that you lose a big part of the NPM ecosystem just because the average NPM package, it was not written with the AssemblyScript compiler in mind. While you do get very efficient code and you do get a very familiar syntax, it’s actually kind of a Venn diagram with the NPM ecosystem rather than the full NPM ecosystem.

More recently, there has been an effort to run JavaScript and TypeScript directly within WebAssembly rather than having a separate language that compiles. Something we did is we worked with a team at Shopify on a project called Javy. It’s something that they started to run a JavaScript engine inside of WebAssembly. You actually take the entire JavaScript interpreter and runtime, you compile that part to WebAssembly and then you feed it the JavaScript or TypeScript that you want to actually run and it runs the WebAssembly as if it was any other environment. What we get is a very interesting hybrid, I guess, between WebAssembly and JavaScript, where you get the additional sandboxing that you would get from WebAssembly, especially in a server-side context. That can be really useful. Maybe not quite as useful in the web browser that’s already tightly sandboxed, but you can run this code that you are very familiar with, you get the full NPM ecosystem and you get the WebAssembly portability and performance that is really nice to have.

The nice thing about WebAssembly is that you can snapshot its memory. What we can do is we can actually pre-initialize a WebAssembly module by interpreting and pre-compiling the JavaScript at build time. Then when you go to run the code, all that work that is usually done at the beginning of execution has already been done. You still get really high performance. There’s some really fun hybrids, I guess, between languages and the WebAssembly technology that you can do to optimize things and make it really perform the way that you need it to perform.

David Mytton (19:53): Right, all these performance optimizations. I suppose you wouldn’t really want to run another JavaScript engine inside WebAssembly inside the browser, right? That would be more for their edge use cases?

Connor Hicks (20:05): Exactly, yes. This is where we want to emulate, say you have a team that is very used to building server-side software in NodeJS, we can port that over to run inside of WebAssembly and gain a bunch of security benefits that doesn’t natively come with NodeJS.

David Mytton (20:19): Yeah, that makes sense. Does this mean that you wouldn’t rewrite your entire application in WebAssembly, it would just be the performance critical components?

Connor Hicks (20:28): That really depends. I would say when it comes to building a web application, you have a React application and you want to do some performance-intensive tasks, I would say absolutely. Adding on WebAssembly as one of the components of your app makes a lot of sense and having the rest of it run as native JavaScript, sure, that absolutely is probably the norm these days for people adopting WebAssembly. But then on the server, I think it does make more sense to have your entire application running in WebAssembly because of those third-party security considerations that we talked about before, ensuring that every single component in your server architecture is adhering strictly to these sandboxing properties and making sure nothing malicious is going on, I think that actually makes a lot more sense. That’s kind of what we’re striving for with our Atmo project.

David Mytton (21:13): What are the common tools that developers will be using once they’ve written their code, let’s say in JavaScript or Rust? How do you see the life cycle working through to, I suppose, compiling, deployment, debugging, all those kinds of things?

Connor Hicks (21:29): This varies wildly by language. Like I said before, if you’re using Rust, it’s kind of all built into the Rust tool chain. You can use Cargo. You can use Rust C, all of the tools that you’re used to. You just tell it which platform you want to compile to, which is WebAssembly, and it all just works.

For other programming languages like Go, you may choose to use TinyGo. For Swift, there’s the Swift Wasm project. It really depends on the language you’re using. We do try to package all this up into a single command. We have a CLI called Subo that helps you configure all these tool chains and you just run Subo build, but that’s for the server-side context. If you are building for the web browser, you will very likely be interacting with the tool chain for the language you’ve chosen directly or you can often integrate with a couple of different tools like Webpack, or there’s a WebAssembly-specific bundler called Trunk that you can use. These often get glued together to get the setup that you’re really hoping for.

Then once you’ve built your WebAssembly, you can use JavaScript’s native APIs to run it in the web browser. You can use our server-side frameworks Atmo and Sat to run it on the server. Then when it comes to debugging, this is where we hit a snag because debugging in WebAssembly has not yet been really standardized and fully adopted across all of the languages. Depending on the language you use, you could have a pretty fine time with debugging or you could have not so great at time. This is actively being worked on. If you’re listening to this six months after we are recording it, it will probably be a vastly different story, but there are a bunch of efforts to standardize how debugging works in WebAssembly. You will hopefully, a couple of months from now, get a more consistent experience.

Doing things like attaching a debugger to a WebAssembly program and stepping through and doing all the kind of classic debugging tasks that you do is not currently that great of a story. There is a fair bit of print line debugging that goes on, which depending on who you are, like me, that’s just your standard so it’s no big deal, but if you’re hoping to attach a more sophisticated debugger, you’re going to have a varied experience depending on which language you’re using.

David Mytton (23:40): What would you say is the best experience currently?

Connor Hicks (23:43): I would say Rust gives the best experience. This is going to be the answer you get for almost anything related to WebAssembly. Rust probably gives you the best experience. I know if you use MScript, and with C++, you also get a pretty good experience there as well. But if you’re looking at using Swift, or if you’re looking at using Go or JavaScript, TypeScript or AssemblyScript, I think there’s still some work to be done.

My own knowledge might even be out of date. That’s how quickly this is moving. It could have changed last week and I just didn’t notice. Take it with a grain of salt and do the research, I would say, on the language you want to use and just look into that debugging story for yourself just before you embark on a gigantic project, perhaps.

David Mytton (24:23): What about deploying to production? What are the steps involved in that and how do you think about updates and all those kinds of things?

Connor Hicks (24:33): With a web application, it is a pretty familiar story. You serve the WebAssembly module as a single file just as part of your web application and the JavaScript code will load it and make it available for execution. It’s relatively transparent in that it kind of acts like a library. Once you’ve loaded a WebAssembly module, you can call functions, you can execute it from your JavaScript code and it’s relatively intuitive and easy to understand.

From the server-side context, there are a varied number of ways that you can do it. The approach that we take with our projects is that we handle the web server, we handle TLS, we handle all of the normal web server parts. Your WebAssembly module is just a function that is executed as part of that web server. The nice thing about this is that they are hot swappable. We can do some incredibly convenient things where we can actually swap out the functions being run without dropping any network connections. Because the Atmo server is running constantly, and that is the thing handling requests, it can swap out your business logic in real time without needing to close any network connections or terminate the host process.

The normal way that we have people deploying these days is you package your Atmo application into a Docker container, you deploy it onto Kubernetes, or if you publish your application to a registry, there’s a project called Bindle, which is kind of the current up and coming WebAssembly registry project, you can publish your project to a Bindle registry and then our Sat project can actually pull that locally to edge nodes and run that using the Consti scheduler that I mentioned before.

These are varying in familiarity for somebody who’s used to deploying on Kubernetes. Using Atmo will just feel like any other server software that you’ve ever deployed, but because edge is still a relatively new environment for everybody, nobody’s really standardized on any one thing, it may not be as familiar to people who have never really used an edge environment before, or even if you have, it’s going to vary depending on whether you choose to use us or CloudFlare or Fastly or whatever. But, the overall goal is that you should just be able to push to get or merge a PR into main. It all gets built and it all gets deployed automatically onto the edge. That’s currently the story we’re showing off.

David Mytton (27:03): In terms of observability, is that just a case of pulling the relevant libraries that you might already be using for whatever language you’re using? Datadog or CloudWatch or Honeycomb, they all just work as is?

Connor Hicks (27:15): We’re pretty deep into the open telemetry ecosystem. Honeycomb and Datadog, they all support open telemetry. That’s kind of what we’ve centered around, I suppose. Open telemetry is built into all of our projects and you can ship your traces and your observability data just as you normally would.

David Mytton (27:34): It makes sense. Before we wrap up then, I have two lightning questions for you. The first one is what interesting tools, they can be general or they can be dev tools, what are you playing around with at the moment?

Connor Hicks (27:46): I’m currently off the Kubernetes train, personally. I’ve gotten a little frustrated. I used to run Kubernetes in my closet server rack for a long time. I’m currently delving back into the world of HashiCorp Nomad, just because I think it’s nice and simple. It can solve a lot of problems, especially for something simple as a home lab. It, I think, lends itself a little bit more easily to those use cases. I’m trying to dive a little bit deeper.

I would say the other dev tool that we’ve really adopted, actually there’s two, now that I’m thinking of it. We’ve been really enamored with GoReleaser, which is a pretty popular project. We’re really basically just putting that everywhere. It’s so easy to deploy new versions of software. It’s a no-brainer.

Then the other is Caddy, a web server, which is being used in some of our edge deployments because it is extreme efficient and it has incredibly good support for just tons and tons and tons of TLS certificates because we are terminating the TLS for all of the domains of all of our customers. We’re doing that on demand. Caddy has a lot of really good, built-in functionality for that. We’re really quite in love with Caddy over here at Suborbital.

David Mytton (29:05): Then secondly, what’s your current tech setup? What hardware and software are you using?

Connor Hicks (29:11): I’ve always been a Mac person. I have an M1 Pro 16 inch. I have it plugged into a 34 inch ultra-wide. I’ve been an ultra-wide fan for many years now. I have a lot of Elgato equipment for streaming and recording and all that kind of stuff. I have a Drop mechanical keyboard. I’ve got a Logitech mouse, VS code. We use Discord for all of our company communications and our community as well. I’m a Firefox browser user. We do a lot of Notion and we use Miro for diagramming and whiteboarding quite a lot. We’re pretty happy with all of those things.

David Mytton (29:52): Great. Well unfortunately, that’s all we’ve got time for. Thanks for joining us, Connor.

Connor Hicks (29:57): My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

David Mytton (30:00): Thanks for listening to the Console DevTools podcast. Please let us know what you think on Twitter. I’m @DavidMytton and you can follow @consoledotdev. Don’t forget to subscribe and rate us in your podcast player. If you are playing around with or building any interesting dev tools, please get in touch. Our email is in the show notes. See you next time.

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About the author

David Mytton is Co-founder & CEO of Console. In 2009, he founded and was CEO of Server Density, a SaaS cloud monitoring startup acquired in 2018 by edge compute and cyber security company, StackPath. He is also researching sustainable computing in the Department of Engineering Science at the University of Oxford, and has been a developer for 15+ years.

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